INTERNET FIGHT

[FyberOptic]

Despite all the controversial discussions that have ever taken place in the chat, revolving around all sorts of topics, we apparently came across one today which set people off with some rather fowl attitudes and remarks, which I can't say I'm very pleased about at the moment.  I might not give as much of a shit half an hour from now, but since it just happened like less than five minutes ago, and I'm still somewhat aggravated with it, I thought I'd just say what I thought about the situation here, since people started vanishing.

The topic of course was regarding saying the pledge in schools, and how some people disagree with doing it at all.  Some feel it should be done anyway out of respect to the dead, while others refuse it for religious grounds or what have you.  But as pointed out, the pledge and meaning of the flag is not always interpreted the same by everyone.  Different backgrounds, and, most especially, different age brackets, affect this a lot.  A younger person is much less likely to have had a father who served in wartime, for example, so their exposure to certain viewpoints is obviously going to be different.  Tis just one of the many factors that age can play on such a thing.

Anyway, perspective aside, it doesn't really matter why people think what.  Boris and I often debate many things in our discussions, and many times we have totally opposing viewpoints due to standing behind different political parties, but we never went to calling each other names, despite how heated it might get.  That's really just uncalled for.  I disagree with him, but I still respect his opinion, even if I think it's wrong.

That said, I do in fact agree with the standpoint that the pledge should be said, out of respect to the country.  I guess that kind of includes the people that died as well, but I don't really look at it that way entirely, and can totally understand why others don't either.  As I said in chat, and have in the past too prolly, my uncle was tortured to death by Koreans, and my grandfather was nearly killed when a torpedo hit his ship, and even though I fully stand behind saying the pledge and respecting our country and flag, I won't jump all over someone who has a disagreeance with some aspect of it.  As mentioned previously, people interpret it differently for many reasons.

Unfortunately, I think the reasons behind why certain people disagreed with the pledge never really get a chance to come out, because that's when the high emotion and name-calling happened.  There's just no need for that kind of shit.  I'd like to think we're all mature enough to discuss such things in a civil manner without insulting people.

So yeah, that's pretty much why I'm aggravated about the whole thing.  Be mad or whatever, but Fybertech is diverse in its opinions, and unlike some places, everyone is entitled to share that without being talked down to.


tl;dr version:  CAN'T WE AWL JUST GET ALONG?


p.s.  If you had anything else to say regarding the issue at hand or what happened, feel free to do so.

[Boris]

Civilly.

My opinion is that der country is founded on freedom and folks can stand and say or not as they will. It's nice and courtious to do so, but I won't go busking nobody for not.

[Prox]

Like I said in chat after everybody had left, internet communication causes a lot of misunderstanding, and also facilitates caustic actions towards others due to the lack of a face or voice to associate the person with.

My main issue with the Pledge of Allegiance and the fact that many states require its periodic recitation in schools (which was actually what I was trying to focus on) is that it means nothing to the kids. Face it or not, high school students are, on average, extremely apathetic. The reason that people (parents) required the pledge of allegiance to be recited in the first place was based on a system of "patriotic education", where kids are taught to love their country and taught the reasons as to why they should love their country. That, and it makes the parents feel good to know their kids are doing all this. I have one big issue with this system.

There are a lot of other reasons people don't like the pledge. There's the "under god" one, which I don't really care too much about, although I don't think god should be in it. There's a bunch of other, smaller reasons which I care even less about. The big issue I have, the one most important to me, is the fact that reciting a set of lines known by rote once a week doesn't do anything towards patriotic education. I had to recite the pledge all through elementary school and I remember I didn't even understand what it meant. I would much rather have students be taught something about the Constitution or the Bill of Rights or the Declaration of Independence, something of substance, which actually means something as to what our country's about.

The primary grievance that some had with what I was saying is that the Pledge of Allegiance is a tribute to the memory of soldiers and others of the united states who died for the country, and that my hatin' on the pledge was trampling on that memory. I fully appreciate the sacrifice these people made for the country, but I have to reinforce that, on average, the high school students who say the pledge of allegiance aren't thinking of that, nor are they thinking about anything else the pledge might mean. I'm a pretty rare case, because i've marinated in politics from a really early age due to my family and their occupations. I care about how America's students regard their country, and I can assure you that the only reason I don't like the Pledge of Allegiance is because it does nothing for the place of the nation in the students' minds.

[Armchair]

My two cents: You don't have to say it, but please stand during it.

[Bluejay]

I always had a problem with the mandatory recitations, I felt that for it to have any real meaning it cannot be forced upon someone.  I stood during it, but I stopped saying it around 7th grade due to the fact that I no longer believed in it.  I wanted to swear no allegance to the country if I was being made to.

This became a huge debate between me and my homeroom teachers and I was given numerous detentions I refused to go to because of it.  And, much as I'm sure happened in chat, I was unable to voice my oppinion on the matter because I was instantly rebuked with (forgive my saying this) patriotic bullshit about how if I didn't say it it was disrespectfull.  I honestly didn't agree with that, my intent was not to snub those that had faught for our freedoms or anything, my intent was to actually put meaning back into the words again, and not make them something you say just because you're told to.

Overall, I feel that the Pledge should be taught to children, but also it should have reason behind it that isn't just "Because we say so"

[ecto]

I wasn't part of the chat but i'm going to throw in what I think. You have a point Blue. I said the pledge every morning because I believed it honored the men and women who died for our freedoms. I can also understand why people would grow tired of it, or just not want to say it. After a few years it gets old.If teachers would sit down and explain the meaning behind the pledge I don't think people would have such a problem saying it. As for refusal of saying it you have every right to. As for trying to get rid of it completly I say a big F you to those individuals. Kids should have a choice in the matter. Those who want to follow along follow along, those who don't well...Just sit in your desks and plug your ears or leave the room.